This belief in a literal indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not limited to individuals in various denominations. Some of our own brethren believe in a personal, literal indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This view is held by some who are sincere and very knowledgeable in the Scriptures, but it is a view with which I do not agree.

There are some things about the Holy Spirit that are very hard to understand. It is not easy to comprehend the workings of the spiritual world while being confined to a physical existence. We must base our understandings of spiritual things upon the teachings of the Word of God, not upon feelings, opinions, desires, or denominational doctrines.

The Holy Spirit Dwells in the Christian

We can not deny the fact that the Holy Spirit dwells in the Christian. The Bible plainly says that He does. Consider the following passages of Scripture.

“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His… But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you” (Romans 8:9, 11).

“Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?” (1 Corinthians 6:19).

“That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us” (2 Timothy 1:14).

“Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, ‘The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously?’” (James 4:5).

There is no doubt that the Holy Spirit dwells in the Christian, but these verses are not proof texts for a personal, literal indwelling. Not one of these verses tells us how the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us, other than the fact that God has given Him to us. These verses simply state the fact that the Spirit dwells in us.

While many take these verses literally and conclude that the Holy Spirit personally dwells within the Christian, I believe that these verses are best understood figuratively. As such, these verses emphasize the blessings that Christians receive from the Holy Spirit.

Fellowship

We know that one of the blessings of being a Christian is that we can have fellowship with God. “That which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ” (1 John 1:3). To have fellowship with the Father and with His Son means to share in the life that Jesus Christ makes available through His death and resurrection. Fellowship with God emphasizes one’s contact and intimacy with God. One way that the Bible describes this contact is by saying that the believer is abiding in God and that God is abiding in the believer.

12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

1 John 4:12-16

The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit dwells in the Christian. However, using the same exact language, the Bible also states that the Father and the Son dwell in the Christian. I find it interesting that while people get excited about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, they do not mention anything about enjoying an indwelling of the Father and the Son. Why not?

Notice also that not only does the Bible say that all three members of the Godhead dwell in the Christian, it also states that the Christian dwells in all three members of the Godhead. John stated that we abide in God as He abides in us. “By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit” (1 John 4:13). Jesus stated that some could abide in Him while He would abide in them. “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him” (John 6:56). The apostle Paul said that believers live in the Holy Spirit. “If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit” (Galatians 5:25).

Taken literally, these passages are confusing. How can a person dwell in a person who is dwelling within him? This does not make sense literally, but it makes perfect sense if taken figuratively. This indwelling is talking about the closeness of the fellowship that we have with the Godhead. It is so close that each is described as dwelling in the other.

When the Bible talks about deity dwelling in us or us dwelling in deity, we must consider the possibility that it is not talking about a literal indwelling, but rather it is a figurative picture of our fellowship with deity.

Influence

One way that a person can be said to dwell in another is to the extent that he can exert an influence over that person. The Holy Spirit (and the Father and the Son) are dwelling in those who show the influence of the Holy Spirit in their lives; that is, they are living in the way that the Spirit tells them to live.

On the night that He was betrayed, Jesus told His apostles that He and His Father would abide with them if they would keep His word.

20 “At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 

21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.”

John 14:20-23

This figure of speech used by the Lord (that of He and the Father being in them and making their home with them) emphasized the closeness of their ongoing fellowship; a fellowship which was conditioned upon their continued obedience to His word.

After the Lord’s ascension into Heaven, the apostles proceeded to carry out the great commission. At one point, the apostles Peter and John were arrested. When they were brought before the Jewish leaders, they acknowledged the fact that Peter and John had been with Jesus (Acts 4:13). They made this statement because they could see the influence that Jesus had upon their lives. They were keeping His word, and thus He was with them.

Paul made a similar point to the Corinthians. Although Paul was no longer with them in Corinth, he told them that his spirit would be with them if they acted upon the influence of his letter.

3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.  

1 Corinthians 5:3-5

Therefore, when the Bible talks about the Spirit dwelling in the Christian, we must consider the possibility that it is speaking figuratively of the influence that the Holy Spirit has upon us as we follow His word. If we walk by the Spirit (Romans 8:1) and bear the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), we can say that the Spirit is dwelling in us.

The Holy Spirit and the Word

There is a connection between the Holy Spirit and the word of God. As we read and study the word of God, the Spirit has an influence upon our lives because the Spirit revealed the word unto mankind (1 Corinthians 2:10-12, 2 Peter 1:21). As we abide in the word (the teachings of the Holy Spirit), we maintain our fellowship with God (John 14:21, 23).

None of the passages presented at the beginning of this article stated how the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the Christian. A miraculous, literal, personal indwelling has to be assumed. There are, however, passages that do state how deity comes to dwell in the Christian.

Christ is said to dwell in our hearts through faith. “that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith…” (Ephesians 3:17).

Paul taught that Christians receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith. In Galatians 3:2-5, Paul twice asked a rhetorical question, “This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith… Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” (vs 2, 5). The obvious answer to this question is that they did not receive the Spirit by the works of the law but by the hearing of faith. In another epistle, Paul taught that faith came by hearing the word of God. “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17).

The Holy Spirit is not the word. He is a person, a part of the Godhead. However, we can not ignore the connection between the Spirit and the word of God. Compare the teaching found in Ephesians 5:18-19 and its sister passage Colossians 3:16.

“And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord” (Ephesians 5:18-19).

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord” (Colossians 3 :16).

I have placed an emphasis upon the phrases that are comparable to one another. Notice that they occupy the same place in the passage. How is it that we are to be filled with the Spirit? The Colossian letter answers the question: by letting the word of Christ dwell in us richly. Thus, we see that the Holy Spirit dwells in the Christian through the Word of God.

The connection between the Holy Spirit and the word of God can also be seen by considering what the Holy Spirit and what the word of God do for the Christian. Consider the comparisons that are made below.

1. The Holy Spirit teaches: “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you” (John 14:26).

The Word of God teaches: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

2. The Holy Spirit admonishes: “Yet for many years You had patience with them, and testified against them by Your Spirit in Your prophets. Yet they would not listen; therefore You gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands” (Nehemiah 9:30).

The Word of God admonishes: (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

3. The Holy Spirit convicts: “And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment” (John 16:8).

The Word of God convicts: “Holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict” (Titus 1:9).

4. The Holy Spirit causes us to be born again: “Jesus answered, ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’” (John 3:5).

The Word of God causes us to be born again: “Having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever” (1 Peter 1:23).

5. The Holy Spirit gives us life: “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life” (John 6:63).

The Word of God gives us life: “This is my comfort in my affliction, for Your word has given me life” (Psalm 119:50).

6. The Holy Spirit gives guidance: “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come” (John 16:13).

The Word of God gives guidance: “Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path” (Psalm 119:105).

7. The Holy Spirit sanctifies us: “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11).

The Word of God sanctifies us: “Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth” (John 17:17).

8. The Holy Spirit washes us: (1 Corinthians 6:11).

The Word of God washes us: “That He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word” (Ephesians 5:26).

9. The Holy Spirit saves us: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5).

The Word of God saves us: “Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls” (James 1:21).

10. The Holy Spirit provides comfort: “Then the churches throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied” (Acts 9:31).

The Word of God provides comfort: “Therefore comfort one another with these words” (1 Thessalonians 4 18).

11. The Holy Spirit bears witness: “The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Romans 8:16).

The Word of God bears witness: “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me” (John 5:39).

12. The Holy Spirit perfects the love of God: “Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us” (Romans 5:5).

The Word of God perfects the love of God: “But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him” (1 John 2:5).

13. The Holy Spirit fills us: “And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit” (Ephesians 5:18).

The Word of God fills us: “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord” (Colossians 3:16).

14. The Holy Spirit calls us: “And the Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’ And let him who hears say, ‘Come!’ And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17).

The Word of God calls us: “To which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thessalonians 2:14).

15. The Holy Spirit builds us up: “That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man” (Ephesians 3:16).

The Word of God builds us up: “So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified” (Acts 20:32).

Not only does the Bible tell us that the Holy Spirit dwells in the Christian, it also tells us how He comes to dwell in the Christian – through His word. As we abide in His word, we enjoy fellowship with the Godhead and the influence of the Holy Spirit can be seen in our life.

Consequences of a Literal, Personal Indwelling View

The belief that the Holy Spirit literally, personally dwells within believers is not just a harmless opinion. There are some serious consequences to this view that must be considered.

1. The Written Word Becomes Insufficient. If a Christian can receive the blessings that were designed by God to be received through His word in some means that is independent and apart from the word of God, then the word of God is no longer necessary for the Christian. This conclusion plays into the hands of those who thrive on emotionalism, are lazy, and do not want to study the Bible.

2. A Dangerous Step Towards Emotionalism and the Charismatic Movement. Strange views are held by those in the denominational world regarding the literal indwelling of the Holy Spirit. For instance, some people insist that, through the Holy Spirit, they receive extra-biblical guidance and wisdom. Many of them confuse the trained conscience with the speaking of the Spirit (They say things like, “The Spirit laid this on my heart,” etc.). Some even believe that it is impossible for them to sin because the Spirit dwelling in them would not allow them to sin.

It is not wrong for a Christian to hold beliefs that are true simply because they happen to be shared by his charismatic neighbors. However, the Charismatic Movement as a whole is more interested in what they feel than in hearing a “thus saith the Lord.” Brethren can fall into this thinking as well, and soon the Bible is abandoned in favor of personal feelings which are mistaken for a leading of the Spirit.

3. The Age of Miracles Has Not Ended. God works in this world through His providence. Any time deity interacts with this physical world in a direct way it is a miracle. For a member of the Godhead to literally and personally dwell in my physical body requires a miracle.

4. We Are Emmanuel. That which made Jesus different than any other man was the fact that deity dwelt in His physical body. “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel, which is translated, God with us” (Matthew 1:23). If the Holy Spirit literally dwells in me, then why wouldn’t I also be “Immanuel?” If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit dwell directly and literally within my body, then why wouldn’t I be the “fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 2:9)?

I have never met a Christian who claims to be God in the flesh, yet this is what the literal indwelling of the Holy Spirit would make of every Christian.

Conclusion

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not an easy subject to understand, but we can understand that which has been revealed in the Bible about this subject.

No one should deny that the Spirit dwells in the Christian. The Bible teaches that the Spirit dwells in us through our faith and acceptance of His word. The Spirit can be said to dwell within us as we manifest the Spirit’s influence upon our lives. The fact that we dwell in the Godhead, and that the Godhead dwells in us, shows the closeness of the fellowship that we have with the Godhead. However, I believe we are in error to take the position that the Holy Spirit literally dwells within us. The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit all dwell in us through our faith, and operate upon our lives through the word of God.

No one can deny that the apostles and some other Christians in the New Testament possessed the ability to perform miracles. The question that we will address in this article is whether or not the Bible teaches that these same gifts exist today?  

The Miraculous Gifts of the Holy Spirit Identified and Explained

Paul devoted three chapters of his first epistle to the church in Corinth to a discussion of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit (chapters 12-14). At the beginning of this section, he identified some of these gifts.

“For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues” (vs. 8-10, emphasis mine – HR).

This passage is not meant to be an exhaustive list of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, but many of them appear to be included.

1. word of wisdom – this gift would be an oral proclamation of a message which had wisdom for its content.
2.  word of knowledge – the exact distinction of this gift from the previous gift is unknown. Perhaps it was a more precise understanding of God’s will.
3.  faith – this was not mere belief, but was apparently a miraculous working faith; a faith that carried with it a divine power (1 Corinthians 13:2, Matthew 17:20, 21:20-21).
4. gifts of healings – the power to restore health to those with physical aliments. This is one of the more popular gifts that people claim to have today, but the spectacles that are passed off today as evidence of a miracle do not compare to the healings that were actually performed by the Lord and His apostles in the New Testament.
5. working of miracles – the ability to perform supernatural acts in order to confirm the teaching of the gospel.
6. prophecy – the word “prophet” indicates that one is a mouth-piece or spokesman for God. This gift enabled one to reveal the truth concerning the past, present, and future will of God. One who possessed this gift had the power to impart divine revelation. Paul said that this was a more desirable gift (1 Corinthians 14:1). 
7. discerning of spirits – in a time when divine revelation was being given through men, the church needed a way to determine who was a true prophet or teacher (1 Corinthians 14:29, 37; 1 John 4:1). This gift was a means of protecting the early church.
8. different kinds of tongues – the ability to speak in an existing, understandable language that one had not learned (Acts 2:4-8). This gift is misunderstood today to be the uncontrollable uttering of ecstatic sounds. However, the Bible says that this gift could be controlled (1 Corinthians 14:27-28).
9. interpretation of tongues – this gift was the ability to understand a language and translate it for the church.

The Purpose of the Miraculous Gifts of the Holy Spirit

God does not do anything without a purpose. Understanding the reason that God gave these gifts to some Christians, and the role that these gifts were to play in the early church, will help us understand their intended duration. These gifts served two important functions:

1. These Gifts Edified the Early Church in the Absence of the Written Word.

These various gifts were given for the benefit of the entire church, not just those who possessed them. “But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all” (1 Corinthians 12:7).

The first century church did not have the New Testament, and the apostles could not be in every local church on every Lord’s day. In the absence of the apostles, local congregations needed these gifts in order to be “established” (Romans 1:11). When a local church assembled, they relied upon the members who had miraculous gifts as a means of receiving instruction.

“Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification… How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification” (1 Corinthians 14:1-5, 26).

2. These Gifts Confirmed the Word.

“And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen” (Mark 16:20).

The word “confirm” means “to certify or prove as being true.” As the apostles and evangelists went out preaching the gospel, the miraculous gifts would accompany their preaching and prove that they were speaking the word of God. “Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did” (Acts 8:5-6). If someone came to town preaching a resurrected Christ, some might scoff and reject the stranger’s message. But if he came to town and healed the sick and raised the dead, everyone would be inclined to listen to what he had to say.

The New Testament indicates that these gifts were never intended primarily as a means of helping people physically. Epaphroditus was sick unto death (Philippians 2:25-27) and Paul had a thorn in the flesh (2 Corinthians 12:7-10). These two men were already believers and laborers in the gospel. They did not need confirmation of the word, so they were not healed miraculously.

When God’s revelation was completed and compiled into what we have as the New Testament, these gifts ceased to be necessary. The word was confirmed (Hebrews 2:3-4) and delivered in its entirety (Jude 3). These gifts have served their purpose and are no longer necessary.

Means of Receiving The Miraculous Gifts of the Holy Spirit

Many people today believe they possess the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit because they claim to have been baptized with the Holy Spirit. In a previous article in this series (to read this article, click here), we noted that this was not the purpose for Holy Spirit baptism.

According to the Bible, the only way that someone other than an apostle received the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit was through the laying on of the hands of an apostle.

In Acts chapter eight, after the city of Samaria had received the gospel, Peter and John were sent to them that they might receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:14-15). Luke tells us that “they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit” (v. 17). One of the new converts in Samaria was able to see for himself exactly how men received the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. “And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, ‘Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit’” (Acts 8:18-19).

The apostle Paul indicated that this was the reason that he wanted to visit the church in Rome. “For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established” (Romans 1:11). Paul also instructed Timothy “to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands” (2 Timothy 1:6). 

The Duration of the Miraculous Gifts of the Holy Spirit

When one understands the intended purpose of these gifts (to reveal and confirm the truth), and the means of receiving these gifts (through the laying on of the hands of an apostles), it should be easy to understand how long God intended these gifts to last. When the last apostle died, the means of receiving these gifts was gone. When the generation after the apostles died, these gifts disappeared. This is also the time when the New Testament was taking shape: the gospels and epistles were being copied, distributed, and compiled.

For one to have these gifts today, he would have to prove:

1. An apostle is still alive.
2. Some who received these gifts directly from an apostle are still alive.
3. God is now imparting these gifts to men in a way that is not revealed in the Bible.

Any serious Bible student must reject all three possibilities.

The New Testament actually speaks of the time when the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit would be coming to an end.

“Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away” (1 Corinthians 13:8-10).

Paul said that these gifts (prophecies, tongues, and miraculous knowledge) would “fail,” “cease,” and “vanish away.” This miraculous means of receiving revelation was knowing God’s will “in part” (v. 9). The early Christians received God’s word piece by piece during their weekly assemblies.

The “perfect” would do away with the “part” (v. 10). The “part” is the miraculous gifts, but what is the “perfect”? Charismatics say that the “perfect” refers to Christ, and that these gifts are to last until He returns. However, to be honest with the text, the “perfect” has to correspond to the “part.” The “parts” make up the “perfect.” If the “part” was the means of receiving God’s revelation piece by piece through the miraculous gifts, then the “perfect” is the complete revelation. The New Testament is the perfect and complete revelation of God’s will. It has come, so the “part” has “failed, ceased, and vanished away.”

Paul went on to say, “When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things” (v. 11). In their infancy, babies need things that adults do not need. The church, in its infancy, needed some things to help it that it does not need today. Those who desire to have the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit would actually have the church regress back to its infancy. Like Paul, the church has put away the things that are associated with its youth. 

Scaffolding is put up to help with the construction of a new building. After the work is completed, the scaffolding is taken down. The miraculous gifts helped the church as it was being established, but have long since been taken down because they are no longer needed.

Conclusion

Some people today believe that they have been empowered by the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues and to prophecy, to perform miracles, to heal the sick and cast out demons. Regardless of the sincerity of these individuals, these claims do not harmonize with the Bible’s teaching regarding the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit were real. They were given to believers through the laying on of the hands of an apostle. These gifts were the means of equipping the church and confirming the word to unbelievers.

When the last apostle died, these gifts were no longer available to mankind. The “part” was replaced with the “perfect.” Today we have the New Testament to guide us in all things pertaining to God’s will.

Larry,

I am not interested in having a bible study with you.  I am a snake handling preacher and did not appreciate the way you talked about our religion.  Serpent handling is very much real.  I have handled serpents and never been bitten.  I sometimes go to the church that brother Wayne pastored at. Poorvalley, in Virginia, is the church he preached at.  Wayne Long was a very generous man and a true man of God.  Why do you consider our faith to be false?  Why do you insist on slandering and putting down someone’s religion?  You’ll be hearing from me again.

Rev. Kamron Guin

(For further information, go to our web site, biblework.com.  There you may order video or audio tapes of, “Holy Spirit Baptism, Tongues, and Miracles,” preached in 2001, and a copy of, “If They Have Received Holy Spirit Baptism,” preached in 2002.)

Kamron,

Thank you for writing and expressing your views.  I am sincerely sorry for the loss of your friend and co-laborer, Wayne Long, (the paper I saw reported his name as “Dwayne Long” ) who died from a snake’s bite during a snake handling, religious service.  I grieve for his family, too.  I am sure he was a sincere man who did what he believed was right.

However, sincerity does not make one right.  One may be sincere, but be wrong before God.  Jesus said so.  “They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service” (Jn. 16:2–Saul of Tarsus is a good example of this prophecy–Acts 8:3; 9:1; 26:9-11).  “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works.  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Matt. 7:22, 23).  They were sincere in their service.  Like you, they believed that they were doing “many wonderful works,” but, like Mr. Long, the dead snake handler, their sincerity will not save them.

First, you say, “I am not interested in having a bible study with you.”  Why not?  I am interested in a Bible study with you.  If you truly have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, you should have no problem at all with me.  I am a simple preacher of the gospel.  I have not had any formal religious training in a seminary.  However, you believe that the Holy Spirit personally guides you in what you teach.  So, why should you fear a study with me?

According to you, I am denying the power of the Holy Spirit.  If that is true, I am lost.  Do you not love my soul enough to study with me and show me the truth?  Are you going to ignore me and let me go to hell without trying to help me?  I believe you are wrong.  I love you enough to study with you.  Why will you not study with me?

I propose that we discuss the issues that divide us.  In an open, public Bible study, I will affirm that, “The Scriptures teach that Holy Spirit baptism and the five signs of Mark 16:17, 18, are not for believers today as they were in the first century.”  Will you, or one of your brethren, deny that topic?

If you, or one of your brethren, will affirm, “The Scriptures teach that Holy Spirit baptism and the five signs of Mark 16:17, 18, are for believers today as they were in the first century,” I will deny it.

You said you “did not appreciate the way (I) talked about (your) religion.”  What did I say that you did not like?   Please be specific.  Did I misrepresent what you believe?  I cited the articles about the case and appealed to Scripture to sustain what I said.  Tell me exactly what it was that you did “not appreciate.”

Second, you say you are “a snake handling preacher.”  Are you also a, “if I drink any deadly thing and it shall not hurt me,” preacher?

Third, you state,”Serpent handling is very much real.  I have handled serpents and never been bitten.”  Well, “Drinking any deadly thing is very much real,” too.  Have you ever drank a deadly substance and not been hurt?

Fourth, you ask, “Why do you consider our faith to be false?”  Well, for starters, there is the death of your friend, Mr. Long.  If your faith were not false, he would not have died.  Even if the snake’s bite made him ill, you, or some of your other fellow believers, could have laid hands on him and saved him, for the same passage which says, “They shall take up serpents,” also says, “they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.”  Since neither of those things occurred, it is obvious that your faith is false.  “When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him” (Deut. 18:22).  What you speak “in the name of the Lord”–that one may take up serpents and not be hurt–did not “come to pass.”  Therefore, your faith is false.

See the tapes at our web site which were cited above.  They explain in detail why your faith is false and contrary to the teaching of the Bible.

Fifth, you ask, “Why do you insist on slandering and putting down someone’s religion?”  You have not proven that I have slandered and put down someone’s religion.  I deny the allegation and challenge the allegator to prove it.

The Lord renounced and repudiated the doctrines and commandments of his Jewish brethren (Matt. 15:1-9; 21:28-44; 23:2-33).  Was he guilty of “slandering and putting down someone’s religion?”  The Lord severely rebuked several of the seven churches of Asia, saying they had left their first love, that they were “wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.”  He told the church at Sardis that they were “dead” (Rev. 2:2-5; 3:1, 17).  Again, was Jesus guilty of “slandering and putting down someone’s religion?”  Will you tell me he was?  If not, neither am I.

Paul could not praise some of the deeds of the Corinthians (1 Cor. 11:22).  He charged them with being “carnal” (1 Cor. 3:1-3).  He said the Galatians were not obeying the truth and that some “are fallen from grace” (Gal. 3:1; 5:4, 7).  Was Paul guilty of “slandering and putting down someone’s religion?”  Will you say he was?  If not, neither am I.

Finally, you promise that I will hear from you again.  When I do, I hope you will answer the questions I have asked you.  I answered your questions; now, you answer mine, please.

Also, let me know about the proposed discussion of Holy Spirit baptism and the gifts of Mark 16.  I will be happy to come to Virginia for a discussion of those issues.  After that, we will have another discussion where I preach and you, or one of your brethren, can defend your position on Holy Spirit baptism and the five signs of Mark 16.  I anxiously await your response.

Sincerely, your friend,

Larry

Message text written by Howard S. Bradshaw

The minister was wrong but that will apply to every faith even the Church of Christ has ministers who are wrong about some of their actions.  We should understand men make mistakes but the word of God is never wrong, and should always be followed.  Acts 2:38; Acts 10:44-48; Acts 19:1-15 some of the word that we should all practice in our ministries.

Yours in Christ

Pastor Howard Bradshaw

Howard,

I am glad to hear from you.  I whole heartedly commend your statements to the effect that all men may be wrong, but that the word of God is always right (Psa. 119:128, 160)!  In fact, I use that as an introduction in many sermon

I do not know to whom you are referring when you mention a minister who was wrong (your first sentence above).  Evidently, you have a particular article or case in mind, perhaps something I wrote.  Could you please tell me the specific reference you have in mind?  Thanks.

I note with interest your comment that we should practice Acts 2:38; 10:44-48; and 19:1-15 in our ministries.  I understand how we may practice the actions of Acts 2:38 and 10:47, 48, but I do not see how we can practice such things as are found in 10:44-46, or 19:6.  Could you please explain this for me?  Thanks.

I trust you will go to our web site, Biblework.com.  There you will find sermon tapes and materials on Holy Spirit baptism, tongues, and miracles.  See the sermon, “If They Have Received Holy Spirit Baptism,” from 9/29/02.  Also, there is one on Holy Spirit Baptism, miracles, and tongues, preached in 2001.  Feel free to order any of the tapes, DVD’s or CD’s of these lessons.  They are sent free of charge.  At the Watchmanmag.com site you can search past issues and find many articles on these and related themes in past issues, many of which I have written.

Howard, I hope to hear from you again.

Larry

Larry,

Do you believe the Bible is the word of God and all of it is inspired ? Is  Mark 16:16,17, really the word of God and can we believe any of it or just part of it or none of it?  How do you apply that part of the word of God in your life?  Is it right to teach people to follow only parts of God’s word ? I don’t handle snakes, but did Paul the apostle ever handle a snake ?  Some teach against many things found in the Bible just because there are people not applying God’s word correctly, I would never teach that one should handle a snake, but I do believe God will help one who is protected by Mark16:16, 17.  Have a good Sunday.  God bless you.

Yours in Christ Jesus Howard

Howard,

It is good to hear from you again.  I sincerely trust that our studies will lead us so that we both may have the unity of the Spirit in the faith of Jesus Chris

First, may I kindly suggest that if you and I are going to correspond about these matters, it will be helpful if you answer the questions I have asked you. In your response above, you ignored my questions and then asked me several more questions.  What if I simply ignored your questions?  I will not do that; I will answer your questions.  I ask the same courtesy of you.  My first response to you appears above, so please answer what I have asked you.  Thanks.

Second, your question, “did Paul the apostle ever handle a snake?” is answered in Acts 28:3-6.  “And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.  And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.  And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.  Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god” (Acts 28:3-6).

Third, you ask, “Do you believe the Bible is the word of God and all of it is inspired ?”  Yes, Howard I “believe the Bible is the word of God and (that) all of it is inspired” of God (1 Cor. 2:6-14; Eph. 3:3-5; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; 2 Pet. 1:20, 21).

Fourth, you ask, “Is Mark 16;16,17 really the word of God, and can we believe any of it or just part of it or none of it”?  Yes, Mark 16:16, 17, is the word of God, and we must believe all of it.

Belief, Baptism, And Signs Following–Still Today?

Here is the text of Mark 16:15-20: “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.  And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.”

No, I do not possess the power to perform any of the above signs and neither does any one else.  Observe why this is true.

First, if these signs are to be possessed by all believers, all who do not possess them are unbelievers.

Second, if these signs were to be possessed by all believers, but not all believers were able to do them, the promise of Jesus failed.

Third, did Jesus promise that all who believed would be able to cast out devils, speak with new tongues, take up serpents, drink deadly liquids without harm, and heal the sick?  If he did so promise, either one of two things is true: (1) one possesses these powers or else he is an unbeliever, or (2) Jesus’ word was false since all believers do not possess them as he allegedly promised.  These conclusions apply with equal force to the saints of the first century.  In the New Testament, not all the believers were able to perform these signs.  Many thousands were converted, yet, for a time, only the apostles performed miracles.  “And many wonders and signs were done by the apostles” (Acts 2:43).  “And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus” (Acts 4:33).  “And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people” (Acts 5:12).  Not until the apostles laid their hands on the seven ministers do we find anyone, except the apostles, performing miracles (Acts 6:6, 8; Cf. 8:18).  In Acts 8:12, a large segment of the population of Samaria believed on the Lord, but they were not immediately enabled to perform the signs of Mark 16:17, 18.  It was not until the apostles laid their hands on them that they “received the Holy Spirit” (v. 18).

Mark 16:15-20 And The Corinthians

Perhaps the most convincing proof that not all believers were able to work the signs of Mark 16 is the Corinthians.

1. All the Corinthians were washed, sanctified, and justified “in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11).
2. All the Corinthians had been “baptized into one body” and all had been made to drink into one Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13).  “Every one” of them had been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 18:8; 1 Cor. 1:12, 13).
3. All the Corinthians had received the grace of God (1 Cor. 1:4; 2 Cor. 6:1).

Now, if the promise in Mark 16 is to all believers, we shall expect to find all the Corinthians performing these signs, for they came behind in no gift (1 Cor. 1:7).  But is this the case?  No, they were not all able to heal; they were not all able to speak in tongues (1 Cor. 12:29, 30); therefore, the promise of Jesus did not mean that every believer would be able to work the five signs.  This is evidence that the apostles did not interpret Jesus’ words to mean that all believers were to perform the five signs, so why should we do so?  I challenge any Pentecostal preacher to answer that argument.

If One, Why Not All?

Those who use Mark 16:17, 18, as proof that miracles are for believers today generally avoid taking up serpents and drinking poison.  If one of the signs of Mark 16 is for all believers today, all of them must be.  Who is it that claims the gift of tongues who will drink “any deadly thing?”  Is there a group that claims the gift of healing who will handle a cuddly Cobra?  If they did, it should not hurt them, but even if it did hurt them, they could have hands laid on them, and they would recover.  Any one care to demonstrate their signs?  “I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars” (Rev. 2:2).  “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world” (1 Jn. 4:1).  Those who claim the signs will not agree to a test lest they be found liars, “For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God” (Jn. 3:20, 21).  “Prove all things” (1 Thess. 5:21).

Limited

The signs of Mark 16 were to follow believers for a specified and limited period. Jesus told the apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.  While they were fulfilling that charge, the signs were to follow them that believed.  This work of preaching to every creature was accomplished in the lifetime of the apostles–”But I say, Have they not heard?  Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world” (Rom. 10:18).  The gospel “was preached to every creature which is under heaven” (Col. 1:6, 23; Titus 2:11).  The signs were to follow during the time necessary to proclaim the gospel to all the world.  Mark says this is what occurred.  “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.” (Mk. 16:19, 20).  They were to preach everywhere.  The signs were to follow.  They preached everywhere, and the signs did follow them (Cf. Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:4).

Objection

“But,” someone asks, “if signs were to be limited to the time when the gospel was being preached, why would not belief and baptism also be limited to the same period?”  The question fails to distinguish between the gospel and the signs that confirmed the gospel.  Belief and baptism are conditions of the gospel that must last as long as the gospel or as long as men sin and need to be saved.  The Lord confirmed “the word with signs following.”  The word is one thing; the signs which confirmed it are another.  The word with its conditions continues, but the signs, having confirmed the word, and thereby having accomplished their purpose, have been done away (Heb. 2:4).

Conclusion

We have shown that: (1) the promise of Jesus in Mark 16:17, 18, did not extend to all believers, even in the first century; (2) the promise of Jesus includes more than tongues and healing; (3) the word was preached, and the signs confirming that word followed; (4) the word, the gospel, is to be separated or distinguished from the signs; (5) the signs have ceased, consequently no man today possesses any of them.

“Snake-handling preacher dies after bite from rattler.  The pastor refused medical treatment after a venomous bite during Easter services.

“Long, whose father was also a snake-handling preacher for more than 30 years, died at his home Monday after refusing medical treatment….‘There have been other members of that family who have died of snakebites in the past 30 to 40 years,’ added…Sheriff Gary Parsons….

“Snake-handlers defend the practice by citing Mark 16:17-18: ‘And these signs shall follow them that believe: in my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.’

“The movement began in the early 1900s, and a Tennessee native, George Hensley, is considered the father of modern snake-handling.  According to some accounts, Hensley was preaching when someone dropped a box of snakes at his feet.  Hensley picked up the snakes and continued his sermon, and soon snake-handling spread to other churches.

“According to other accounts, Hensley brought the box of snakes to the pulpit himself as he preached from the book of Mark.  He died in 1955, of a snakebite.”

Another report of the incident from Roanoke, VA, said, “Serpent-handlers believe that when people die of a snakebite they receive during a service, it was simply their time to go….

“(Sheriff) Parsons said another Lee County man died about two years ago after being bitten by a rattlesnake during service at a Pentecostal church in Tennessee.”

Comments: First, this is another example of the power and deceit of false doctrine (Romans 16:17; Colossians 2:8).  It shows how deadly and lethal is the acceptance of error (2 Corinthians 11:3; James 5:19, 20).  It reveals how thoroughly and completely the devil has blinded the minds of many (2 Corinthians 4:4).  It also shows how great is the burden of those of us who know the truth.  May God grant us the wisdom to reach souls who are under the spell of those “whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

Second, observe that the pastor “refused medical treatment.”  Why offer medical treatment?  Since Mark 16:17, 18, speaks of the fact that “they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover,” as well as it speaks of their taking “up serpents,” why did not someone lay hands on him and save him from the effects of the “venomous bite”?  Did that power fail, too?  Evidently.  Mr. Long is dead.  “Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain” (Proverbs 25:14).

Third, if it is true “that when people die of a snakebite they receive during a service, it was simply their time to go,” then every Pentecostal ought to take up serpents.  If it is “their time to go,” they will “go” whether or not the snake bites them.  If it is not “their time to go,” they will not die even if the serpent bites them, so why do they not all “take up serpents”?

Fourth, Dwayne Long, unlike his Pentecostal brethren in the trinitarian Assemblies of God and the “oneness,” Jesus only, United Pentecostal Church, was consistent.  Assemblies of God and United Pentecostal Churches generally want only two of the five signs promised in Mark 16: 17, 18, speaking in tongues and miraculous healing.  Jesus said that those disciples would (1) “cast out devils” in his name, (2) “they shall speak with new tongues, (3) “they shall take up serpents, (4) and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them, and” (5) “they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.”  As noted, most Pentecostals claim “tongues speaking” and “healing” from that list.  Mr. Long took up serpents.  He was more consistent than they, but he is dead, and they are alive.

But why not all five signs? The statement of the Lord is equally emphatic concerning tongues, healing, and the taking up of serpents.  The Lord did not say, “they might.”  He said, “They shall.”  If any of those signs are performed by believers today, why not all five?  A Pentecostal, speaking as the Spirit gives him utterance, needs to tell us (Acts 2:4; 1 Peter 4:11).  I doubt that any of them will respond.  They are afraid of being snake bit.

Mr. Robertson often has endorsed modern day miracle claims and has featured faith healers on his television program.  One wonders why this man, who believes in the miraculous, divine healing power of the Holy Spirit today, needed to have surgery for his ailment.  Seems to me that this would have been the perfect time for one of his miracle working preacher friends to have laid their hands on him and healed him.  Since he surely had sufficient faith to be healed, why did he not call one of the prominent healers of this generation (Oral Roberts, for example), and ask them to rid him of his malady?

That Mr. Robertson had cancer of the prostate is beyond dispute. So, why did they not call for one of his miracles working friends to heal him?  Better yet, why didn’t one of them volunteer to do so?  I mean, if I had such a gift, the very minute I heard that my friend, Pat Robertson, had such a serious disease, I would have insisted that I be allowed to come and pray that he might receive his healing!

Many times, he has joined hands in prayer with such folks on his television program.  Many times he has sanctioned their work and given self proclaimed miracle working faith healers national credibility and acceptance.  Why, then, rather than undergoing surgery, did he not go on television with several of his brethren and ask them to pray for him that he might receive the healing which he says is readily available for believers today?

Yes, one wonders.

"The Bible speaks of two baptisms – baptism with water and baptism of the Holy Spirit. Both are referred to on several different occasions, so both are essential (a few examples include Matt. 3:11, John 1:3, John 3:4, Acts 10:34-38).

"Ephesians 4:5, however, speaks of there being one baptism. Since the Bible actually mentions two of them, then this must mean that one of the baptisms takes precedence over the other. …which baptism is referred to here? Explain what it means to have [either] one superior to the other."

Baptisms Of The Bible

Actually, the Bible speaks of more than "two baptisms." It speaks of a baptism of suffering (Mk. 10:38, 39; Lk. 12:50), "the baptism of John" (Matt. 21:25), a baptism of fire (Matt. 3:11), and a baptism "unto Moses" (1 Cor. 10:2), as well as the aforementioned baptisms of water and the Holy Spirit.

Neither the fact that these baptisms are mentioned, nor that some of them were once essential for certain ones, means that they are authorized today. Too, the fact that a baptism might be demanded for some does not mean that it was essential for all others. The baptism of John is an example. It was not for the Gentiles. It could not be said of the procurator Pontius Pilate, as it was said of certain Jews, that he rejected the counsel of God by not being baptized of John (Lk. 7:29. 30). Also, by its very nature, the baptism "unto Moses," while essential to those who would escape Egypt, was not one in which every Israelite of every generation could participate (Ex. 14:29-31; 1 Cor. 10:1, 2). An Israelite in Isaiah’s day could not "claim" the baptism of Moses for himself; he could not declare that since his fathers "experienced," or received it, that it was for him and his brethren. Hence, the fact that a baptism is "referred to" does not make it essential to all for the same purpose. This is true, as we shall see, of Holy Spirit baptism.

Note that while an Israelite in David’s day could not receive the baptism "unto Moses," he could receive the benefits of it. That is, he was not a slave, but was in the mighty nation of Israel. Likewise, though one is not baptized with the Holy Spirit today, he still receives the benefits of that baptism under the gospel (Eph. 3:3-5, 8-11; 1 Pet. 1:10-12).

It is not a matter of whether one baptism is "superior" to another. Each baptism is paramount in its own time and place with respect to its purpose and function. So, when we say there is "one baptism," it does not mean that one baptism is better or superior to another, but that one exists in this age because its purpose continues.

Holy Spirit And Water Baptism

(1) Elements: Yes, there were two baptisms in Acts 2, and in Acts 10, one in the element of water (Cf. Acts 2:38; 10:47, 48-baptism in the name of Christ is in water) and the other in the Holy Spirit (Cf. Acts 1:2-8; 2:1-4; 10:44-46; 11:15-17). Thus, there are two separate elements, water and the Holy Spirit. Two separate elements demands two separate baptisms. If one were baptized in water and also in oil, the fact that there were two elements would mean there were two immersions. Thus, water and Holy Spirit baptism are two separate baptisms and not a combination wherein they both together constitute one baptism. (2) Persons: Water and Holy Spirit baptism were not for the same persons (Acts 1:2-8; 2:38). Holy Spirit baptism was promised to the apostles (Cf. Matt. 26:20 and Jn. 13:1; Jn.14:26; 15:26, 27; 16:13; Acts 1:2-8). Though Cornelius and his household received it, it was never promised to anyone else. (3) Purposes: Water baptism is "for the remission of sins" (Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16). That is never said of Holy Spirit baptism. The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit that they might "receive power" and be guided "into all truth" (Jn. 14:26; 15:26, 27; 16:13; Acts 1:8). Cornelius and his household received it that it might be clearly seen that the Gentiles were subject to the gospel (Acts 10:47, 48; 11:18; 15:7-11). Holy Spirit baptism was never given or promised to save anyone, but water baptism is essential for one to be saved or forgiven (Mk. 16;16; Acts 2:38). (For a detailed study of this point, see, my book, "The Christ, The Cross, And The Church," pages 136-138, 142-145). (4) Administrators: Men are authorized to baptize penitent believers in water (Matt 28:19; Acts 8:38; 1 Cor. 1:14, 15). Men, therefore, are the administrators of water baptism. However, Jesus is the one who baptized with the Holy Spirit (Matt. 3:11). Men cannot perform, cannot administer, Holy Spirit baptism.

Now, Though, "There Is One Baptism"

As noted, there are several baptisms mentioned in the Bible. Now, though, Paul says, "there is…one baptism" (Eph. 4:4, 5). He did not say "there has always been one baptism," neither did he say, "there will always be just "one baptism," but he said, "there is…one baptism." That being true, which baptisms have ceased? Obviously, we are not under John’s baptism today (Acts 19:1-5). Certainly, we all realize that the baptism of Moses does not continue (1 Cor. 10:1, 2). The Lord and his baptism of suffering does not continue today. The apostles received it, but it is not for believers today as it was for them. It has been "accomplished" (Lk. 12:50). The baptism of fire has not yet occurred (Matt. 3:7-12). No one should desire it! That baptism of fire is in an "unquenchable fire" (Matt. 3:12). It is, therefore the baptism of fire in hell, that is, "into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched" (Cf. Matt. 3:12; Mk. 9:45, 46).

Since there is now, in our age, "one baptism," which of the two, water or Holy Spirit, has ceased? When the purpose of the baptisms that have ceased was fulfilled, the baptism ceased. For example, when the baptism "unto Moses" achieved its purpose, when Israel was finally separated from Egyptian bondage, that baptism was never repeated. When the baptism of John accomplished its purpose, it, too, was terminated (Acts 19:1-5).

Thus, of the two, water or Holy Spirit baptism, which has fulfilled its purpose, its mission? Is the word of God incomplete? Do men today need to receive more truth? No, for we have "all truth," "the perfect law of liberty," "all things that pertain unto life and godliness," "the faith once (one time for all time) delivered" (Jn. 16:13; Jas. 1:25; 2 Pet. 1:3; Jude 3). The Scriptures are able to furnish the man of God completely unto every good work (2 Tim. 3:16, 17). Hence, we do not need to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit as the apostles received it. The purpose has been fulfilled. We have all truth, the whole and complete truth of God.

The household of Cornelius received Holy Spirit baptism. Do men today still need to be convinced that Gentiles are amenable to the gospel? No, all recognize the universal nature and appeal of the gospel-"teach all nations," "into all the world," "in every nation," "whosoever will." Holy Spirit baptism is not required in our day to demonstrate that Jesus died for all men and that "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Its point and purpose has been attained.

When the purpose of the baptism of Moses was met, it ended, never to be repeated again. When John’s baptism met its goal, it was no longer valid. Likewise, since the purposes of Holy Spirit baptism have been fulfilled, it is no longer being employed. Jesus is not baptizing people in the Holy Spirit as he once did.

What of water baptism? Does it continue? If so, why? Well, water baptism in the name of Christ is "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). Men must be baptized in order to be saved (Mk. 16:16). Do men today need the forgiveness of sins? Do men today still need to be saved? If so, then water baptism continues. It will exist as long as there are men who need to be forgiven of their sins and saved. So, since there is "one baptism," which one is left? Which one, of all the baptisms previously cited, which one has a purpose that is still necessary? Which baptism is needed with respect to its purpose as stated in Scripture? Why, water baptism, of course.

Now, if ever there comes a time when everyone is saved, if there were ever a time when there were no lost sinners, if every man were forgiven, would water baptism continue? No, for its purpose would no longer be necessary. That is why the other baptisms ceased. So, water baptism would end and would no longer be practiced if everyone were saved. Obviously, that has not happened, and water baptism continues. It is, therefore, the "one baptism" of Ephesians 4:5.

To someone who has never experienced speaking in what we as Pentecostal some time call an unknown tong.It doesn’t surprise me that you don’t believe. I could give you vers,but I am sure you would counter them with other vers.
I speak from experience. I was not raised Pentecostal. But I can tell you it real and when I speak in that heavenly language it not jibes it the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in me and through me to edify the Church. In my life time of be used in this gift of God it has never brought harm are confusion to the Body of Christ
I have never see Jesus face to face. But I know he real and he has saved me from death and given me hope of an eternal future with him.
Seek and you to will fine that some things are not debatable but excepted that we may better serve God.

Reply: First, since the author did not say, I do not know what I have said that has brought his reaction. It would help this reply if I knew the material to which he is objecting.

Second, it should be noted that, whether right or wrong, I have set forth my views openly and plainly, not anonymously. If the author truly has the spiritual gifts he claims to have, why should he be afraid? Why should he hide behind the cloak of anonymity? Of what does he have to be ashamed? Those who had certain miraculous gifts in the New Testament spoke "with all boldness" (Acts 4:29, 33; 14:3; Eph. 6:18-20). If he has what they had, why does he not do the same?

Third, must one "experience" a thing in order to believe in it? Mr. Anonymous ("because I’m afraid you might give me a verse") stated, "To someone who has never experienced speaking in what we as Pentecostal some time call an unknown tong.It doesn’t surprise me that you don’t believe." Well, has he ever died and been raised, or has he ever been bitten by a serpent or drank deadly poison and not been hurt? If not, does the fact that he has not experienced those things mean he does not believe in them? So, the fact that I have never experienced the ability to speak in tongues as was done in the New Testament has nothing at all to do with whether or not I believe such things did occur or do occur.

Later, our Mr. Anonymous ("because I’m ashamed to be identified with my teaching") makes that same argument for me. "I have never see Jesus face to face. But I know he real and he has saved me from death and given me hope of an eternal future with him." Since he can believe in Jesus without having seen him face to face, so I believe in the fact that certain ones in the New Testament were enabled to speak in languages they had never studied or never learned, though men cannot do the same today. Since he can believe in Jesus without having seen him face to face, so he and I can believe that some raised the dead and were bitten by venomous serpents without being harmed, though such things do not occur today (Acts 9:36-39; 28:3-6). Thus, even according to our anonymous, frightened friend, one need not "experience" a thing to believe in it, for though he himself has not personally "experienced" or seen Jesus "face to face," yet he believes in him and what he did for the sins of the world.

Christians do not deny that tongues speaking, as defined and described in the New Testament, does not occur today because they have not "experienced" it (Acts 2:4-11). Christians do not deny that men cannot walk on water today, as some did in the New Testament, because they have not experienced it (Matt. 14:25-29). Mr. Anonymous ("because I’m ashamed to openly defend my doctrine") has not walked on water, nor have any of his brethren. Yet, he believes it was done. Would he say men may walk on water today as Jesus and Peter did? If not, would he be denying the power of God? I have met men who claimed they have walked on water as Jesus did. Must our anonymous respondent "experience" it before he will believe his Pentecostal brother’s claim?

Fourth, in this same connection, he says, "I speak from experience." This assertion is supposed to convince us of the divine origin of his claim to speak in "an unknown tongue." Mormons say they, too, "speak from experience." They testify that God has assured them that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith is his prophet. So does the Muslim testify who says that the Koran is a book of God and that Mohammed is his prophet. "I speak from experience," they all say. If that is "proof" of the divine truth and reality of Mr. Anonymous’s "experience," why is it not sufficient to establish the heavenly veracity of the Mormons and the Muslims? Why should we believe him and not them?

Assumption and assertion will not suffice. Pagan witch doctors say they speak in heavenly languages and work wonders and miracles of healing. One of them could say, "I speak from experience." Would that assertion prove their case, too? Why should we believe the Pentecostals but not the pagans?

Fifth, what is that "heavenly language" ? Our covert correspondent needs to define it for us. His Pentecostal brethren cannot agree among themselves.

1. Some say that "heavenly language" is a Spirit generated utterance which is not a language, but an oral expression of ecstacy, and "ecstatic utterance." This cannot be true, for "There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning" (1Cor. 14:10). If there are such utterances, all one is doing is speaking into the air and is to be seen as a "barbarian" (1 Cor. 14:9-11).
   
2. Others say they are ecstatic utterances which are a special "heavenly language," wherein one speaks to God, not men. If there is such a passage, it conflicts with 1 Corinthians 14:9, "So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air." Again, if there is such a "heavenly language," where is the proof? What passage so states? Most cite 1 Corinthians 14:2, "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries." Note the text. Why does one speak not unto men but not God? Is it because the language is a "heavenly" one? No, see the passage; it tells us why one speaks "not unto men but unto God." "For no one understands him!" That is true if I speak in the Russian language to an assembly in America. The Russian tongue is a real language, but if I speak it to an English speaking audience, I speak "not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth (me)." Thus, the fact that none understand what is spoken does not prove a heavenly language has been spoken.
   
3. A few say they are the tongues of angels. This shifts gears without pushing in the clutch! We are discussing tongues of men, tongues which are "in (this) world" (1 Cor. 14:9-11). Hear these cogent comments with respect to men who might be said to speak with "the tongues of angels."
   
   "Paul supposed a hypothetical case, and said, ‘if I speak with the tongues of men and of angels." We know he spoke in human languages, but we do not know that he spoke in the language of angels (1 Cor. 14:18, 19).
   
   "The reference to tongues of angels may well be a superlative, just as Paul’s statement that though we or an angel preach any other gospel we are to be anathema (Gal. 1:8). Paul was not saying that an angel from heaven would preach another gospel, but emphasizing the fact that the gospel is the only and the final gospel. Just so, even if one spoke with the tongues of men, but had not love, he was nothing. This superlative underscores the fundamental importance of love.
   
   "In his commentary Matthew Pool suggested that just as manna was called angels’ food (Psa. 78:25), without suggesting that angels ate, but that it was a most excellent food, so Paul may mean that if one expressed himself in the most excellent way it can be described as the tongues of angels" (James D. Bales, Pat Boone And The Gift Of Tongues, 77).
   

Which of the three views of what constitutes a "heavenly language," as cited above, is correct? And why cannot men who claim they are led by the Spirit agree on what it is they are speaking when they speak this "heavenly language"? The fact that they contradict one another and give conflicting explanations shows they do not have the Spirit they say they have.

Sixth, His alleged gift, this "heavenly language, edifies "the Church," he says. What church? Which church? Since he says he was "not raised Pentecostal," I am left to assume that he is now "Pentecostal." However, the Bible never speaks of a "Pentecostal church" of any kind. In the New Testament, "Pentecost" was a day, not a church, not an "experience," nor a "tongue." It was never used to designate believers in Christ, not even those who had received Holy Spirit baptism and spoken in tongues. Obviously, therefore, the Bible never speaks of anyone edifying a "Pentecostal church," as he claims to do.

Too, when Paul exhorted a church to grow and be edified, even one that had received miraculous gifts of the Spirit, he turned them to the word of God for that growth. "And now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified" (Acts 20:32; Cf. 19:5, 6). This commendation comports with Peter’s command. "As newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby" (1Pet. 2:2; Cf. Jas. 1:21). Even in the days of spiritual gifts, it was the word of God, whether through prophecy or men speaking God’s message in language which could be understood, which edified the church (1 Cor. 14:5).

Seventh, anonymous affirms that, "In my life time of be used in this gift of God it has never brought harm are confusion to the Body of Christ." As we have shown above, many of Mr. Anonymous’s claims are confused for they do not fit the outline of Scripture. As such they are hurtful and harmful, deceptive and destructive (Rom. 16:17, 18). His words will eat as doth a cancerous tumor. His doctrines will lead to more and more ungodliness (2 Tim. 2:16-18). Because of that, he must be opposed and exposed.

If he truly believes his remarks will edify and not confuse people, why does he hide behind his cowardly shield of anonymity?

Eighth, "tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe" (1 Cor. 14:22). Our anonymous correspondent says his "heavenly language" is used to edify the church. How does he use it as a "sign…to unbelievers"? Or does he? Can unbelievers understand his "heavenly language"? If so, do they need an interpreter? What can he tell unbelievers through his alleged gift that the unbeliever cannot learn by studying the Bible?

Further, in the connection, if no one understands his "heavenly language," he is to keep silence, if there is no interpreter (1 Cor. 14:27, 28). Does Mr. Anonymous ("because I’m afraid you might give me a verse") abide by this direction of the Holy Spirit? Does the church he attends allow two, or at the most three, to speak in order and have one to interpret? That is what the Spirit says should be done. If they do not, they are not being led by the Holy Spirit of God, for the Spirit today would not lead one to contradict what he (the Holy Spirit) said to do in the Bible.

Ninth, he says, "some things are not debatable," but simply have to be accepted. If so, why is he debating or discussing it with me? Why did he bother to write me if the issue of his "heavenly language" is "not debatable"? Is it "debatable" that men can raise the dead today? Is it "debatable" that men will not be hurt today "if they drink any deadly thing" (Mk. 16:18)? I wonder if it is "debatable" as to whether our anonymous friend takes up serpents (Mk. 16:18)? Remember, his tongues are "authorized" in the same passages as are the serpents and the drinking of "deadly" liquids (Mk. 16:17-20). Yes, I think it is "debatable" as to whether our friend actually does those things!

Tenth, and finally, tongues are languages. In the New Testament, those who spoke in tongues, were miraculously enabled to speak languages, or tongues, they had never studied and never learned. In Acts 2, men from many nations heard the apostles speak in their tongues, their languages, and they understood them (Acts 2:4-11). It is one of those "things that are not debatable." It is not being done today by the Pentecostals, nor by anyone else. And, that is "not debatable," either!

Would you mind sharing your thoughts on 1 Corinthians 13:1; 14:2 and the issue of speaking in tongues. My brother is a Pentecostal, and we have discussed this issue (along with several other issues) at length. I have pointed out that tongues is being able to speak in other languages, which he agrees with but then he says it is also speaking in the tongue of angels — saying his spirit is speaking to God — as he points out in the verses above. Can you offer some insight on what the "tongues of angels," 13:1, and "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries," 14:2?

First, though Paul is using hyperbolic (exaggerated) language to stress a point in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3, he gives no comfort to modern Pentecostalism. Men do have tongues, or languages (Acts 2:4, 6, 8, 11; 1 Corinthians 13:1). Those tongues, or languages, are not incoherent, multi-syllable jibber jabber. Rather, they are coherent, comprehensible languages, as Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 clearly show.

(Compare Cornelius and his household who spoke in tongues. Those present knew the languages spoken, for they knew they were magnifying God [Acts 10:46]. However, they could not have known if they were magnifying or maligning God if they had not understood the languages. See 1 Corinthians 14:9, 16 — "except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken….how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned ['the unlearned' one is simply the one who does not know the language spoken-LRH] say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?" Further, we know the languages spoken by Cornelius ["the Gentiles"] were understandable, for Peter said it reminded him of "the beginning" at Pentecost, and we know those languages were understood by those who heard them [Acts 2:4-11].)

Again, the tongues of men, the tongues men speak, are understandable, comprehendible. They are not "without signification" or meaning as are the vain babblings of Pentecostalism.

The same is true with the language of angels. Angels speak. They have a language or tongue (Revelation 5:2, 11, 12). It is not some sort of heavenly muttering or mumbling. Paul says though he could speak with the tongues of men and even of those of angels and did not have love, it would not profit him at all, spiritually speaking (1 Corinthians 13:1-3). Throughout the book of Revelation, John heard and understood the speech of angels, and we can, too!

Second, as kindly as you can, explain to your brother that if he is speaking and no one understands him, he is violating what the Holy Spirit has said. The Spirit says that one who is not understood is to keep quiet (1 Corinthians 14:9, 16, 17, 27, 28).

"Yes, but what about 1 Corinthians 14:2?" The text says, "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." Let us break the passage down, take it apart, and put it back together again.

(A) What is "an unknown tongue?" It is any language one does not understand. Russian is an "unknown tongue" to most of our readers. Why? Because it is not understood by them, it is an "unknown tongue." Is it, therefore, an unintelligible, "heavenly, prayer" language? No! It is only "unknown" in the sense that we do not understand it, but it is a real language that Russians understand. Now, if I speak Russian in an American assembly, I will be speaking in an "unknown tongue."

(B) Though it is a language of men, I will be speaking "not unto men, but unto God." Why? "For (underscore this!) no man understandeth him." Note it, please! The text does not say I will be speaking in an unknown tongue because it is some kind of esoteric, ecstatic "prayer language"! No, I will be speaking "not unto men, but unto God: for no man" will understand what I am saying! See that point? It is essential that you do so in order to understand the passage.

(C) Even though I may be speaking great things, great mysteries of the wisdom and testimony of God, it is all for nought so far as the audience is concerned "for no man understandeth" me. If I, by the Spirit, am miraculously enabled to speak Russian and then use that gift before an American audience, I may be speaking the most profound mysteries of the kingdom of God, but I speak them to God and not unto man, "for no man understandeth" me.

1 Corinthians 14, it must be remembered, stresses that the audience, the church, must receive "edification, and exhortation, and comfort" (v. 3). The purpose of the assembly is for "the edifying of the church….that all may learn and be comforted (vv. 12, 31). In fact, "Let all things be done unto edifying;" that is, do nothing that does not edify (v. 26).

However, these things cannot be accomplished if one speaks in a language no one understands. Such speeches are "into the air" (v. 9). They cause brethren to see one another as barbarians (unlearned, untaught, v. 11). One cannot "amen" the prayer of another, "seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest" (v. 16). Too, if one speaks in a tongue that none understand, both the unlearned and the unbelievers will say, "ye are mad" (v. 23).

Those who speak in tongues that are not understood produce confusion. They do not produce learning, edification, comfort, and peace. Hence, they are not to speak to others if there is no interpreter — "If any man speak in an unknown tongue (remember, an unknown tongue is simply a language not understood by the audience), let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God" (vv. 27, 28). Pentecostal churches violate these words of the Spirit every time they engage in what they call "tongues speaking." (1) They often speak all at once, not in order. (2) More than two or three speak, and (3) they make no pretense of having an interpreter,"inspired" or otherwise (and any "interpreter" they might have would be, "otherwise," for there are no such gifts today (Acts 8:18; 1 Corinthians 13:8-10; Cf. Mark 16:19, 20; Galatians 3:15; Hebrews 2:3, 4).

(Addendum: In a letter to the fellow above, I suggested that he seek to arrange a public discussion with his brother’s Pentecostal preacher on Holy Spirit baptism and speaking in tongues. If there is any response, l shall keep our readers informed — Larry)

Editor’s Note: The following is an email discussion between Larry Hafley and a man by the name of Donald M. Haas. In order to preserve the exact discussion, the exchange is published as received by brother Hafley, with no attempt made to correct spelling, grammar or punctuation errors.

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we better stop praying “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”

there are musical instruments in heaven

Thank You Lord Jesus for filling this brothers heart with Your version of Your word.

The Lord won’t agree with my version of “nothin.”

Message text written by donald m haas

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Don,

Where did you learn that there are “musical instruments in heaven”?

Please cite the source of your information.

Thanx. Larry

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Dear Brother Larry,

I have a blood brother named Larry.

Rev 5:8, 14:2 harps

Rev 8:13, 9:14 trumpets

I know of 5 other references where there is a musical instrument from God or it is His will to have instruments in heaven.

My chief desire for you is that you have all of God’s best for your life and ministry.

All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in the hope of glory!

Love in Christ,

Don

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Don ,

Thanks for the information and the passages which you say show that mechanical instruments of music will be in heaven. I, too, want you to have all the blessings of God in Christ Jesus. Now, let me ask some questions about the references you cited.

(1) Revelation 5:8: The passage not only mentions “harps,” but it also mentions “golden” bowls. Will there also be literal golden vials (bowls) in heaven? If so, may we have them in the church today? If we may, how shall we use them in the worship of the church?

(2) Revelation 8:13: Since there are “flying” angels in heaven, are there “flying” angels in the church today? If there are angels that fly in the church today, do they also speak with a “loud voice” in the church as they do in “the midst of heaven”?

(3) Revelation 9:14: Since the “sixth angel” in heaven gave messages to the inhabitants there, does he also give messages to the church today? Since the sixth angel “heard a voice” coming from “the golden altar which is before God,” does he also hear this same voice and communicate the things he hears to the church today (Rev. 9:13)?

(4) Revelation 14:2: Will there be literal water and thunder in heaven? If there is literal thunder in heaven, as we know it, in the church today? If not, how may we utilize such thunder in the worship of the church?

I am curious because it appears that if the passages you cited with respect to musical instruments justifies their use in the church today, then they also authorize the use of the other things that are cited in the same passages. I sincerely would like to hear how we might apply these things in the worship of the church today, as you say we may apply the musical instruments. Thank you for any light you can shed on these matters. Larry

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Dear Brother Larry ,

You have become a blessing to me. When you said in your last Email: “I sincerely would like to hear how we might apply these things in the worship of the church today….

I have had the same desire and request before God for sometime now. The desire seems to be growing in my heart. I will continue to delight myself in Him and be found worshipping God. Ultimately I want worship in heaven. But until then I will agree to His will in worship on the earth as it is in heaven. Can you imagine being in a worship situation as it is in heaven like the Bible describes.

Let’s seek Him together for all we can find of His provision for our worship!

I’m sure that your questions can be best answered by the Holy Ghost. Have you received Him as your teacher.

I will share with you a little of what I have learned while meditating on “our 4 verses”.

Rev 5:8 – The bowls contain the prayers of the saints and alot of the worship songs that I’m familiar with are in fact musical prayers or “psalms” it you will. In that context we have the connection with heavenly worship in the church.

Rev 8:13, 9:14 – Angels have been seen and heard in church meetings and I have heard recent reports of such activity. Short of an Angel being manifested in the natural realm it would involve the gifit of the Holy Spirit called discernment of spirits (as the Spirit wills). I have never heard of an Angel manifested in the natural realm in a church meeting.

Rev 14:2- Notice: the voice form heaven as the voice of many waters and as the voice of a great thunder. Here in is described the sound of 144,000 whole hearted, singing, Holy Ghost powered worshippers. The “harpers harping” were heard as well. God believes that we can do that. We just need a few more salvations at my church how about you! I’m sure that youv’e got a sense of humor lurking somewhere in the bullrushes. Amen?

If we had a football stadium size crowd that was behaving like those folks in heaven we would have a similar sound.

The prayers that Paul prayed for the church in Eph. and Col. have been a great help to me. I learned to pray them for my self. They have been what God needed, in part, to increasingly sensitize me to the Holy Ghost. Surely you can see that praying the word of God over yourself, just like the Bible reads, can be efficient.

I will always refer you to the word and the Spirit and admonish you to Seek The Lord. That way we can avoid foolish disputations and pitting our minds against one another. I grew up in a denomination similiar to yours and I expect that a lot of what I can share will not fit what you are use to. I also have needed abundantly confirmation from the Lord on unfamilar things.

It’s always a pleasure to meet faithful and diligent Christian men such as your self.

Love In Christ,

Don

P.S. We use musical instruments in our worship at church because it seems good to us and the Holy Ghost. Acts 15:28

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Don,

I am still curious as to whether there will be literal, physical, material harps in heaven. You have not told me.

If the golden bowls were symbols of the prayers of the saints, is it possible that the harps were symbolic also?

You say that you were raised in a denomination similar to mine. Dan, I am not a member of any denomination. I am simply a Spirit led Christian, a member of the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).

You seem to equate the conditions of heaven with those of the church. Since there will be infants in heaven, are infants also members of the church of which you are a member (2 Sam. 12:23)?

Some things which are in heaven are not in the church, such as angel’s speaking directly. Other things in the church will not be in heaven, such as the Lord’s supper, for it is to be taken only until the Lord comes again (1 Cor. 11:26). It is in the church, but it will not be in heaven. Angels directly speak in heaven but do not do so in the church. Infants will be members of heaven’s citizenship, but are not members of the church. Thus, not everything that is in one place will be in another.

Catholics may have infant membership in their churches because it seems good to them and to the Holy Ghost. They may even cite the fact that infants will be in heaven. Still, that does not prove that we should have babies as members of the Lord’s church (Cf. Acts 8:12–”men and women,” NOT, infants).

Therefore, even if you were to prove that literal harps and trumpets will be in heaven, that would not authorize them for the worship of the church today.

Yes, 144,000 were praising God in Revelation 14:2. I wonder if there are rain and thunderstorms in heaven since many waters and great thunder were also heard? If the many waters and great thunders are symbolic, why aren’t the harps (as per Rev. 5:8). However, if the harps are literal, physical harps, why isn’t the water and thunder also literal? You say that since there were harps there, that we may have them in the church today. Well, do you have “many waters” and a “great thunder” in your church today? If one, why not the others?

How does one “receive the Holy Ghost” as his teacher? Too, what does it mean to be sensitized to the Holy Ghost, and how does prayer accomplish this feat? Please cite the passages on prayer that speak of this sensitization.

Where does the Bible say that “praying the word of God over (ourselves), just like the Bible reads, can be efficient”? Rather, see Acts 20:32; 2 Tim. 2:15; 1 Pet. 2:2)

Don, like you, I am opposed to “foolish disputations.” You certainly agree with me that our exchange does not qualify as such.

You speak as though we should not be “pitting” our minds against one another. Yet, this is exactly what the Holy Ghost encourages us to do (Acts 17:2, 3; 19:8, 9; 28:22-30; Phil. 1:17; 1 Thess. 5:21; 1 Pet. 3:15; Jude 3). So, why would you speak against the direct leading of the Holy Ghost with respect to such exchanges?

I know that the use of mechanical instruments of music in the worship of the church seem good to you, but where did you learn that the use of such things is “good” to the Holy Ghost? It will not do for you to cite what the Holy Ghost may approve in heaven, for we are here discussing the worship of the church. So, where did you learn that your instruments are “good” to the Holy Ghost?

If you would like, we can arrange for you or for one of your preachers to address the church here on these topics and show us the way of God more perfectly. We are open to study and consideration for the will of God on all such matters (Jn. 3:20, 21).

I shall look forward to hearing from you again.

Larry

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Dear Brother Larry,

You certainly have a well oiled mind. I will prayerfully consider all your questions and statements and respond with what I have from the Lord. This will take a few days.

If I may, I would like to ask you a few questions. Not to challenge you, but to have a little more information as to what you are used to.

1. Can you ask the Lord a question and hear him answer it.
2. How does the Holy Ghost behave when your church is in worship.
3. Is it a normal function of the leadership in your church to know what the Holy Ghost wants to do during the course of a meeting. Can He change directions at will during a meeting.

Brother I need to apologize to you for my opening statement in my first E-mail to you.

Looking back at it, it seems insensitive and a little rude. It seems more in the flesh than walking in love and I am sorry for presenting my self to you that way.

Sincerely,

Don

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Don,

I appreciate your apology. I didn’t take exception to it but noted that it was terse. I thank you for your courtesy. Now, to your questions.

1) If by “hear him answer it” you mean audibly, orally, the answer is no.

God speaks to us today “by his Son” (Heb. 1;1, 2). We are to “hear…him” (Matt. 17:5). We hear the voice of the Son of God the same way that Abraham expected the five brothers of the rich man to hear Moses and the prophets, i.e., through what they had written (Lk. 16:29; Jn. 5:25). Paul said that some in his day could hear the voices of the Old Testament prophets. How could they do so? By reading what the prophets wrote, they “heard” them (Acts 13:27). That is how Moses was preached; that is, by reading what Moses wrote, Moses was preached (Acts 15:21).

When Jesus wanted his audience to hear what God had spoken, he cited them to Scripture, not to an audible voice (Matt. 22:31, 32). When the Hebrew writer called the Holy Spirit to witness on a point, he cited Scripture, therefore, the Spirit witnesses to us through Scripture (Heb. 10:15, 16). Likewise, God speaks to us today through his word.

His word is all sufficient. It is complete (2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Jas. 1:25). We now have all things that pertain unto life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). We need no more, for the apostles were guided by the Spirit into “all truth” (Jn. 16:13). Thus, there is nothing more for the Lord to add to us today. The faith has been once for all, one time for all time, delivered unto the saints (Jude 3).

2) Would you kindly cite me a passage which tells how the Spirit is supposed to behave when we worship? What verses in the Bible speak of the Spirit’s behavior during the worship of the saints today? Please supply answers to these questions so I can address your question.

Note that the apostles directed us as to how we ought to behave ourselves “in the house of God, which is the church of the living God” (1 Tim. 3:15). They did not speak of the Spirit’s behavior but of how we ought to behave. Should we not do likewise? Why speak of the Spirit’s behavior in the church when the apostles did not do so?

Does the Spirit ever misbehave in your worship? Does the Spirit ever show any direct disapproval of anything that goes on in worship? How do you know? What Scripture shows us how the Spirit is to behave and what Scriptures show us how to recognize when the Spirit is displeased with our worship? Does every church, from charismatic Catholics to praying Pentecostals, have the approval of the Spirit in their work and worship?

Don, the answers to these questions will be helpful to me in replying to your question more completely.

3) First, your wondering about the Spirit’s random change of will would seem to contradict what the Spirit himself said in 1 Corinthians 14:33, 40. If the Spirit indeed changes “directions at will during a meeting,” that would result in confusion and disorder, things of which the Spirit has said he is not the author.

The Holy Spirit has already shown us how he wants us to worship and serve God. As 2 Timothy 3:16, 17, clearly reveals, he has given us everything we need. We have everything which is sufficient for every good work. He has outlined those things for us and given us specific rules by which we are to walk (1 Cor. 4:6, 16, 17; 11:1, 2, 23-26; 14:33, 40; Phil. 3:16, 17). Thus, we know how we ought to walk and to please God (1 Thess. 4:1). We need no further instruction along that line. If so, then 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 is false!

Since Jesus is “the head over all things to the church,” we do not listen to another, not even to an angel from heaven (Gal. 1:8, 9). We listen to Christ and to his will. The church is to be subject unto Christ (Eph. 5:23, 24). He has told us what to do “during the course of a meeting” (Matt. 28:20; Acts 2:42). Thus, we need not inquire of the Spirit. Jesus, not the Spirit, is the head of the church; therefore, we do what he has commanded, what he has authorized through the word given by the Spirit unto the apostles (Lk. 10;16; 1 Cor. 14:37; 1 Jn. 4:6).

Not only shall I anxiously await your reply to this material, but also to the previous note to which you have promised to respond after you give it more thought. Again, if you or one of your teachers should desire to do so, we would be glad for them to speak for us and show us how the Spirit is to behave and lead our worship. We are open to study and are willing to hear others who may disagree with us. We want to know and to do God’s will in all things. Anyone who can help us know the truth more perfectly is our friend (Acts 18:24-26).

Larry

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(Editor’s Note: In this section, Donald Haas’ post and Larry Hafleys reply are combined. Larry’s reply to each point is contained in parenthesis. Haas’ material has been italicized to make it easier to deliniate between the two. )

Dear Brother Larry,

I’ve numbered my responses for my own use.

1. Heaven is a strictly spiritual place meaning it does not exist in the natural realm. Heaven cannot be perceived with natural human perceptions that are designed for use here in the natural realm on the earth. As the Lord wills He can show heaven to a human but it will be “in the spirt” not in the natural. If we were with John in heaven when he witnessed Rev 5:8, we would have experienced spiritual reality in heaven and observed, with him, the activities there. The harps would have appeared to us as literal, material, physical harps which the beasts and the elders each had when they fell down before the Lamb. Their existence however would be in the spiritual realm.

(Don, you’re right! Thus, the harps are not literal instruments as we know them. Therefore, you have not proven that harps will be in heaven; yet, when we began this study, the presence of harps in heaven was your proof that they should be in the worship of the church today. So, you are back to square one. Since literal, material harps are not in heaven, how do you prove that they may be used in the worship of the church today?)

2. The golden bowls were not symbols of the prayers of the saints. They contained odors “which are the prayers of the saints.”

(The golden bowls were not literal, material golden bowls, which is what you must find in order to establish that literal, material harps are in heaven, for this, according to your initial argument, would prove that such harps may be used in the worship of the church today. They are not physical, material harps or bowls, therefore, you have not proven that mechanical instruments of music may be used in the worship of the church.)

3. Perhaps I should apologize to you on behalf of the Holy ghost because He is not willing that I respond to your questions and statements as you require.

(Don, no man can apologize for the Holy Ghost, or on his behalf, for the Spirit of God cannot sin, cannot err. You say that the Holy Ghost “is not willing that I respond to your questions and statements as you require.” Well, Don, the Holy Ghost told me that he expects you to respond to my questions and statements. He said, “Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear” [1Pet. 3:15]. The Spirit said, “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” [1 Thess. 5:21]. This is the will of the Holy Ghost as he expressed it in the word of God. Now, you say, “He is not willing that I respond to your questions and statements.” Don, how did you learn this? Why would the Spirit tell you something which contradicts his revealed will as given in the Bible?)

I was led by the Spirit to “resign from the debating society” some years ago. I do welcome situations where people are willing to let the Lord use me to minister His word to them. In that case He will.

(Don, what is this “debating society” of which you speak? I am not a member of it, and I did not know you once had been a member of it.

When you say you welcome situations “where people are willing to let the Lord use me to minister His word to them,” do you mean by this that you will teach them so long as they do not question or reason with you? Do you mean that you can only “minister” to them so long as they do not respond or object to what you say? If that is not what you mean, then what is your point? Please explain.

We read where the apostles ministered the word of God to people, but they did so with great controversy, with much reasoning, even as our Lord did at age 12 [Lk. 2:46--"both hearing them, and asking them questions." Cf. Acts 17:2, 3]

Further, if you resigned from “the debating society,” why have you been engaging in this exchange with me? This very reply of yours, which I am now reviewing is in debate form. If it is not, what do you mean by debating?

Generally, Don, I have found that folks resign from “the debating society” when they find they cannot sustain their doctrine from the Bible. Up to this point, you have been engaged in a written discussion with me. Now, you inform me that you cannot respond to me, though you tell me this as you respond to certain of my “questions and statements,” even numbering them as you make your response!! Can you not see your inconsistency here?)

When I wrote against “pitting our minds against one another, I was referring to the verses that say: …”the man of God must not strive”, and “we wrestle not against flesh and blood”. I struggled for years in my discipleship while striving with people combined with leaning to my own understanding of the Bible. The truth that set me free from this difficulty is that God can use who He wants, the way He wants, when He wants and it will never be based on my understanding. Period! Jesus became Lord of my understanding when previously, in part, my understanding was Lord.

(Don, when the Bible says not to strive, is it forbidding such a Bible study and discussion as we are having? If so, then Paul sinned in Acts 28:22-31 when he invited folks in and studied and reasoned from the Scriptures. If not, what is your point? No, we are not to engage in angry quarrels and strife, but that is not what you and I are doing. At least, I am not. We are commanded to “earnestly contend for the faith,” and Paul said he was “set for the defense of the gospel” (Phil. 1:17; Jude 3). Surely, you believe you must do as the Holy Ghost instructs you to do; that is, to dispute the Scriptures with those who are lost in error [Acts 9:29; 17:2, 3, 16, 17; 18:4; 19:8, 9].

You are correct in saying that we are not to lean on our own understanding, for that is what the Holy Ghost says [Prov. 3:5-7]. However, the Holy Ghost commands us to “understand” what the will of the Lord is, and he says we can do that when we read the New Testament [Eph. 3:4; 5:17]. I assume you believe those words of the Holy Ghost. Thus, you are bound by the Holy Ghost to share your understanding with others [2 Tim. 2:2, 15].

You cited Ephesians 6:12, where it says we are not to wrestle against flesh and blood. In that text, the Spirit is not telling us we may not reason with others. If so, he would contradict what he said elsewhere–”Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins” [Jas. 5:19, 20]. Further, if in saying that “‘we wrestle not against flesh and blood’” the Holy Ghost is saying we should not reason with those in error, why did He say, “Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove (expose) them” [Eph. 5:11]? See the problem? In one place, the Spirit tells us to expose or reprove error by taking “the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,” but in the same context, according to you, he tells us not to reason with others with respect with what we understand the Scriptures to teach [Eph. 5:11; 6:12, 17].

Don, either the Holy Ghost contradicted himself, or you have misapplied Ephesians 6:12. Please explain.)

The only version of the word of God that He will agree to is His; the version that the Holy Ghost teaches. One Old timer said: “Some read the Bible in Hebrew and some read it in Greek, but I read it in the Holy Ghost”.

(Don, would you please be so kind as to type me some “Holy Ghost” Scripture without using Hebrew, Greek, or English, etc.? I would love to read Scripture in that Holy Ghost version, so if you could please e-mail me some of it, I would like to see it. Thanks in advance.

In the New Testament, Jesus quoted from the Septuagint [Greek translation of O.T., Hebrew Scripture]. May we not do as the Lord did? Surely, Jesus could have used that Holy Ghost version of which you spoke, yet, he, like us, quoted from a Greek translation of Hebrew Scripture. Again, what is wrong with us doing as he did?)

Paul ministered against unbelief with revelation knowledge that he received from the Lord. His “speech and preaching was not with enticing words of mans wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.”

(Right you are, Don, and when we read what he wrote, we are reading “the commandments of the Lord” as given by the Holy Ghost [Cf. 1 Cor. 2:12, 13; 14:37]. When we refer to what the Spirit recorded in the Bible, we are speaking as the oracles of God and are not using the enticing words of man’s wisdom but are using the wisdom of God as revealed in the word of God, the Bible [2 Thess. 2:15; 2 Tim. 1:13; 2:2, 15; 4:2-4; 1 Pet. 4:11].)

The anointing of God coming from within Paul (from his spirit) effected the listener’s spirits and those that were able to receive would be changed into believers by this ministry.

(Don, “faith cometh by hearing” the word of God as expressed by the apostles. We believe through their word which they received from the Spirit [Jn. 16:13; 17:20; Rom. 10:17].)

Nothing that originates with me is of any value in ministry of the word. If I cannot speak, what I hear the Holy Ghost gives me to say to you, then I am of no value to the lord as a vessel. I would just be an “information booth” reciting my understanding. You would never get Jesus from me you would only get Don the earthen vessel.

(No one, certainly not me, wants to hear Don’s wisdom. However, I do want to hear you “preach the word” and “sound out the word of the Lord” as given by the Spirit in the Bible. Now, if your paragraph above is saying you cannot answer my “questions and statements,” why have you done so anyway? Why have you given me your understanding of certain passages in the book of Revelation and Ephesians? Were you being an “‘information booth’” in this note of yours, or were you attempting to help me to know and understand the will of God?

Is this the way you deal with evolutionists and other infidels? Do you refuse to try to teach them and convert them because you would be giving them your word, and because you would be just “an ‘information booth’ reciting [your own] understanding” to them? Is that how you deal with your friends and neighbors who are not Christians? Do you refuse to study with them and show them the truth as you understand it from the word of God? No, it is not! Likewise, then why not treat me the same way?

Again, no one wants anything that “originates with” you. I certainly do not. However, I want you to show me where pianos, organs, harps, and other such instruments of music “originated” in the New Testament for the worship of the Lord’s church. Do not give me your own understanding, give me the passages that “originate” such things for the worship of the church. Will you do it? Can you do it?)

4. If I made an incorrect assumption about my coming from a denomination similar to yours, then I ask your forgiveness. The church that I grew up in was called the 1st Church of Christ. My understanding back then was that it was the same as the Church of Christ across town except that they believed against using musical instruments in church and we called them “The non musical Church of Christ”. The church that I was in was real strong on accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior and making a public confession of your faith. They ministered a lot on baptism by immersion in water. At the age of nine I was born again and baptized in water. They seemed to be opposed to any thing that might come under the heading of Charismatic or Pentecostal activities.

(Don, there is no offense taken about your assumption regarding the church. I am simply a Christian [Acts 11:26]. I have been saved by grace through faith [Eph. 2:8, 9; Cf. Acts 19:5). The Lord redeemed me by his blood [1 Pet. 1:18, 19]. He did this when I repented and was “baptized…in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins” [Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16]. At this point, I was “baptized into one body,” the church [1 Cor. 12:13].

I note that you say you were “born again and baptized in water.” Don, where does the Bible teach, where does the Holy Ghost say, that one is born again before he is baptized? I would like to know. Or, did that idea “originate” with you?)

5. “Praying the Word” refers to an approach to prayer that focuses what the Bible says on the need. For example: I have 6 young children at home. The oldest is eleven. In the last year I would estimate that around 15 times it came to my attention that one or more of the children had symptoms of sickness on their body. Stomach ache, nausea, congestion, coughing etc.,. etc. Any of these symptoms could develop into something more serious of not checked. In this type of situation I will pray after this fashion: Thank You Heavenly Father for your word that says: by his stripes ye were healed, thank you for your word that says Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses, thank you for your word that says Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law (which includes every plague and sickness not written in the book of this law, Gal 3:13 and Deut 28:61) I ask You Father in the Name of Jesus to watch over your Holy Word and perform it in this child’s body. Thank You Heavenly Father for healing my child in Jesus Name. Satan! In the mighty Name of Jesus I command you and every demon of sickness and disease and infirmity to go from this house. Jesus gave me authority over you all and made me the head of this house. Get off of my property. Now! In Jesus Name I said Go!!!

Usually all symptoms disappear within hours

(Don, I thought you said you were opposed to being an “information booth.” I thought you did not want to present things that “originates with me.” You said, “Nothing that originates with me is of any value in ministry of the word.” Yet, immediately above, you have done just that. You have given your testimony, your own understanding. In so doing, you have misapplied what the Holy Ghost said. Surely, you know that Galatians 3:13 has nothing to do with physical healing! Surely, you know that Jesus “fulfilled” Isaiah 53:4 in Matthew 8:16, 17, and that miraculous, divine healing is not incorporated in the promise of Isaiah 53:4 for believers today.

I am puzzled by your use of the word, “usually,” when you said, “Usually all symptoms disappear within hours.” What do you mean, “usually”? Does God occasionally fail in fulfilling his promises? If not, why the word, “usually”? Further, “young children” the age of yours often have such maladies as you describe and they disappear “within hours.” The same thing happens in the homes of atheists and unbelieving Jews and Muslims. So, that is not a miraculous fulfillment of Scripture.

May I correctly assume, given your testimony above, that your house contains no cold remedy, cough syrup, aspirin, or stomach medicine of any kind?)

6. If I were to pray the Word over you like Paul did the church in Ephesians it would be after this fashion: I pray that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto Larry Ray Hafley the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of Larry’s understanding being enlightened; that Larry may know what is the hope of Your calling, Father, and what the riches of the glory of Your inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of Your power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of Your mighty power, Which You wrought in Christ, when You raised him from the dead, and set him at Your own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

(Don, I thank you for your sincere concern for my growth in the Lord. Perhaps you would do well to cite what Paul told the Ephesians as the means to fulfill his prayer for them–”I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified” [Acts 20:32]. In order for the Ephesians to receive the benefit of the prayer for them, they were told to “read, [that] ye may understand” [Eph. 3:4]. That is how that prayer will be fulfilled today [1 Tim. 4:13; 2 Tim. 2:15; 1 Pet. 2:2].)

After I prayed this way for my self consistently, (for a season) it became obvious that the spirit of wisdom and revelation was operating freely in my life. I became able to look at most any place in the bible and began to receive increased understanding or revelation knowledge from the Holy Ghost. I became able to minister with the Holy Spirit much more accurately and efficiently.

(Don, if this is so, why, then, have you made so many blunders in this response of yours? Several of your errors and misapplications of Scripture have been pointed out in this reply. Surely, you do not blame the Holy Ghost for leading you astray! To illustrate the charge, you state that through prayer you received ” increased understanding.” However, the Holy Ghost says that such understanding comes from reading and studying the word of God [Acts 20:32; Eph. 3:4; 1 Tim. 4:13; 2 Tim. 2:2, 15; 1 Pet. 2:2]. Why do you say that you received understanding one way, through prayer, directly from the Holy Ghost, while the Bible says such understanding comes through reading and study? Please explain.)

One man that benefitted the same way that I have from this said: It’s amazing that the deacons didn’t come and pull me in out of the rain. Before, I was preaching like I had no sense.

(Don, the above paragraph is some more of your “‘information booth’” religion. It is from you, not from the Holy Ghost, not from the Bible. Earlier you said, “If I cannot speak, what I hear the Holy Ghost give me to say to you, then I am of no value to the lord as a vessel.” If that is so, why did you give me the last two paragraphs? You see, they conflict with your earlier statements.

If you and that other gentleman were “preaching like [you] had no sense,” does that mean you were not preaching from the word of God? Were you ignoring the Bible when you preached like you had “no sense”? It’s possible for men to preach like they have no sense, and it is possible for them to do so while they pervert Scripture. Which scenario describes you during the time you were “preaching like [you] had no sense”?)

What is revealed by the spirit of wisdom and revelation is God’s understanding of His Word. It is uncontaminated by the wisdom of man, man’s intellect, man’s ego, logical deductions and all that seems right to a man. The pure, blessed, Holy mind of Christ is made available.

(Don, did you not know that, “The pure, blessed, Holy mind of Christ is made available” to us in the Bible? Paul said he had “the mind of Christ” [1 Cor. 2:16; 7:40]. When we read what he and the others wrote, we, too, have access to “the mind of Christ” [1 Cor. 14:37; Eph. 3:4]. As shown above, this knowledge comes through study and reading, not directly through prayer.

Your statement immediately above says there is God’s word, the Bible, and then there is “God’s understanding of His Word.” This understanding is, you say, revealed through prayer. Don, would you please read a passage from the Holy Ghost that says this? Where does the Spirit of God speak of the revelation of the word of God and also the revelation of the understanding of that word? You speak of it, you make that distinction in the paragraph above, but, like you said, your word is nothing. The word of God is all that matters. Therefore, I should like to see that distinction taught by the Holy Ghost. Can you produce it? Did the idea “originate” with you or with the Holy Ghost? I should like to know. Will you show me from the Bible?)

We become sensitized to the Holy Spirit who Is enabled by our praying of His Word to open the scriptures up for us; not unlike Jesus opening the scriptures for His disciples.

(Don, where does the Bible teach what you just said in the paragraph above? Or, did this idea “originate” with you? Where did you learn that “the Holy Spirit…is enabled by our praying of His Word to open the scriptures up for us”? Remember, “Nothing that originates with me is of any value in ministry of the word.”

Yes, the Lord opened the understanding of the disciples, but note that he did so on that occasion through teaching and instruction [Lk. 24:27; Acts 1:2, 3]. He did not do so by telling them to “pray through the word” or “through the Holy Ghost, as you tell me to do. Rather, he taught them. Don, why does the practice of the Lord differ from what you are telling me? How can you say you have a direct knowledge and enlightenment from the Holy Ghost when you keep making mistakes like this?)

This is not a substitute for worship, prayer and fasting, seeking God, intimacy with God, praying in the Holy Ghost and all the time needed for preparation to minister.

6. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

(Don, John 14:26 cannot be a promise to you. Note that is was made to those who had been with Jesus “from the beginning” [Jn. 15:27]. That certainly does not describe you [Acts 1:21, 22]! Further, note that the passage says Jesus will remind those to whom he was speaking of “all things…whatsoever I have said unto you.” Now, Don, just what things are there that Jesus spoke to you that he needs to remind you of? You see, Don, Jesus was speaking to those disciples, to the men to whom he had spoken and instructed [Acts 1:2, 3]. He promised them, NOT you and me, that he would remind them of things he had said. He could not make such a promise to you, for he has never spoken to you as he did to them. Thus, the passage is not a promise to you.)

If I want to pray in agreement with this scripture I might pray: Dear Holy Ghost, Jesus said that You are the teacher of all things and I ask in the Name of Jesus that You would be my teacher and that you would enable me by your grace, mercy, wisdom, knowledge,help and unction to be one of your excellent students. From this day forward You are my teacher and I am learning what ever you are teaching. In Jesus Holy Name I pray, Amen.

(Bless your heart, Don, but would you please read to me where the Holy Ghost ever originated such a prayer as that? Where does the word of God exhort us to say a prayer like that? Really, though, why is such a prayer necessary? In the paragraph above this one, you said that Jesus promised to give you such miraculous wisdom and understanding through the Holy Ghost. Is that promise, which you say is intended for you, contingent upon your prayer? If so, where does the Bible say so?

When Paul commended the Ephesian elders to the word of God and when he told the Ephesians to “read,” he failed to tell them of the prayer you just gave me [Acts 20:32; 1 Cor. 14:37; Eph. 3:4] . Why is that? Why didn’t the apostles give the advice you gave? Why did they say, “study” and “read” when it would have been so much easier for us if they had told us to simply pray for that knowledge as you advise me to do? Would you please explain why they told us to “read” while you say we ought to “pray” and let God give it to us through the Holy Ghost?)

It is not the exact wording that is important but praying in agreement with the Spirit and The Word, believing in your heart and confession in agreement with it. Refer to the principles found in Rom 10:9,10. Very simply, I believe what Jesus said about it and the Holy Ghost is my teacher.

(Don, Romans 10;9, 10, gives no principle which we may apply to your teaching. It says to confess and believe. It says nothing about prayer. Further, just seven verses later, the Spirit says “faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.” So, the faith of verses 9 and 10 does not come by prayer, but by hearing. But to fit and apply to your doctrine, it ought to say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and since that faith in him comes after you pray through the Holy Ghost, then you must pray through the word to get it.” That is not what the text says; hence, it does not apply to your doctrine.

For a man who is supposed to be giving me, not his word, but the very word of the Holy Ghost, you surely are managing to be in conflict with the word of the Holy Ghost in the Bible.)

• 1 the voice from heaven
  2 as the voice of many waters
  3 and as the voice of a great thunder
  1. Large number of strong singers worshiping.
  2. Singing a new song
  3. Harpers harping (stringed instruments) at an appropriate volume

7. Rev 14:2- Notice:

Here in is described the sound of the 144,000. The “harpers harping” were heard as well. The harpers had to be producing a very loud volume to be heard along with the 144,000.

There is a pattern here that God likes to see in church meetings.

(Don, Revelation 14:2 says absolutely nothing about the church, or the worship of the church on earth today. Why, then, do you say it ” is a pattern…that God likes to see in church meetings”? I suspect this idea “originated” with you, and not with the Holy Ghost, for he has given no such pattern as you describe. Again, though, if the voice of harpers harping with their harps justifies harps in the worship of the church today, does the voice as the voice of a great thunder mean there are thunderstorms in heaven? In your opening paragraph, you said that the harps of Revelation 5 were “spiritual,” not material, physical harps. Are the harps here also “spiritual” in their nature and composition? If so, then you still have not found a material harp to justify the use of material, mechanical instruments of music in the worship of the church today. I am still looking for that proof. Perhaps you ought to pray a little harder through the word and ask the Holy Ghost to show you where the authorization for such things may be found.)

8. We need to unconditionally open our selves up unto God. And cry out to Him for His version of our lives, our gifts, our ministries, our home, our church. It is far more important for God to find us worshipping Him privately than it is to struggle with our understanding about instruments in church. It would be wrong for me to say that you should have musical instruments in your church because that could be a stumbling block for your whole church, at present. I want you to have God’s best and I have shared with you some of what I have to that end.

(Don, where does the Bible teach that, “It is far more important for God to find us worshipping Him privately than it is to struggle with our understanding about instruments in church”? That is what you said, but where does the Holy Ghost say it? Your word is not sufficient; it is not my guide. So, if you will direct me to where the Holy Ghost said such a thing, I will believe it.

Jesus did not think that our private worship was “far more important” than our understanding of certain doctrines. He did not teach that “worshiping him privately” “is far more important” than our public doctrines or teachings. He said that when we draw near to him (whether privately or publicly) and we do so while keeping our own human traditions, that our worship is “in vain,” void [Matt. 15:8, 9, 13, 14; Cf. 7:21-27]. Again, Don, your advice, judgments, and pronouncements are shown to contradict what the Holy Ghost and Jesus said. If what I said kept on proving to be different from what the word of God says, I believe I would have to back up and take a look at myself in the mirror of God’s word. “Examine yourselves whether ye be in the faith” [2 Cor. 13:5].

You state that, “It would be wrong for me to say that you should have musical instruments in your church because that could be a stumblingblock for your whole church, at present.” Is that how you approach infant baptism or sprinkling for baptism? Do you believe one can continue to practice infant baptism and sprinkling because the removal of those doctrines and practices would be “a stumblingblock”?

It was “a stumblingblock” to remove the moneychangers and them that sold doves from the temple, but the Lord did it anyway. It was “a stumblingblock” to add circumcision to the will of God, but that did not justify those who thought it was acceptable to bind circumcision. The worship of the church is not decided by what would prove “a stumblingblock,” but by a “thus saith the Lord” (Matt. 28:20; Col. 3:17).

You are a wonderful brother Larry and I thank God for you.
Sincerely, Don.

(I appreciate your kind attitude toward me. However, I fear that our vast differences show that we are not in spiritual fellowship with one another. I do not say that to be unkind, but to cause you to think and consider what has been said in the light of God’s word. Please write again and feel free to respond to what I have written. I will be glad to study or discuss Scripture with you or with one of your teachers or preachers. Sincerely, Larry)